“Roberts Rules and bylaws in one hand, a beefy systematic theology in the other, the Scriptures rolling off my tongue, and a heart of love that blurts out resurrection to the suffering” What an incredible vision and hope. I love it.
So good, as always! I so appreciate your voice. Thanks for putting your thoughts out here for us to benefit from. The "Roberts Rules and bylaws" part got me :D
Coming from the political world, I know the value of it. I even was training to become a parliamentarian, once upon a time, because I saw how it can be wielded in settings where ideals are on the table.
isnt this like a chastity movement for prostitutes. the pentecostal movement is anti intellectual because is has no basis in apostolic tradition. its a movement that started on azuza st in the 1920s. thats in-credible to ppl with a brain, why is the pentecostal understanding of the gifts of the spirit absent from the entirity of church history?
That’s a comedic way of putting it, and I get you’re probably speaking in hyperbole. But I really don’t think things are that bad. Pentecostalism is no monolith, and it has institutions of higher learning across the globe. I also think the apostolic tradition is a little more complicated than what you’ve said here 😜
so do mormons. where is the gift of tongues as expressed by post-azusa pentacostalism in the early church or church fathers. serious question, id love to dig in if its there to be found.
You first asked about gifts (plural). When it comes to visions, ecstatic experiences, dreams, healings. and other typically Pentecostal spiritual experiences—all of that is well represented from the desert fathers through the medieval era. From St. Antony to Julian of Norwich. I can’t speak to tongues specifically. But Pentecostalism can’t be reduced to the gift of tongues, especially given the marginal (though significant) role it has played in Pentecostal practice. I also don’t think comparing to Mormonism is fair. Most Pentecostals are nicene-confessing, canon-defending, tradition-respecting Christians.
ok well tongues is especially emphasized by pentecostals and its the one with the most clear discrepancy from the traditional determination of the gift as i understand it
unfair? you must reject the canons of nicea and reject the meaning of the creed as regards what one holy catholic and apostolic church meant to the council fathers. so no to that one you reject 7 canonical books of the bible, so no there. and tradition? youve got no priesthood, no sacrifice, no eucharist in the traditional notion, no sacrament of penance, what tradition are you aligned with, the cathars?
Sounds to me like your beef is with Protestantism, not Pentecostalism 😅. Have you heard of Raneiro Cantalemessa? He’s worth reading for someone who is catholic and entirely into Pentecostalism 😊
The two can and should go together. In my own tradition we have 'Reason is the devil's whore' coming from a man who bested the brains of his day but whose most influential fight might have been for increased learning of Greek and Hebrew and translation of the Scriptures into the vernacular.
The problem is that the answer to where to use the brain and where to leave it behind cannot be answered systematically. Law can be defined and precisely specified on tablets of stone. Gospel requires a living man, and is spread as much by our failures and mistakes as by anything that we get right. Gospel only comes from a sinner speaking deliberately as a 'sinner saved by grace', a beggar showing other beggars where he found bread. What we need isn't 'revealed from heaven' but only 'from faith to faith'.
Calling Peter and John "smart idiot pentecostals" gave me the idea of "Ichthyic Pentecostal Macadamias," which sounds less offensive. Spirits, holy or not, do not have brains. It is no surprise that some pentecostals believe the brain (the intellect) will interfere with the Holy Spirit. Poor Darwin and Galileo were attacked for their intellectual achievements. I believe Pope something or another pardoned Galileo. Mercifully, Darwin's books were never banned by any pope. Within your belief system, you write clearly and brilliantly. Ergo, I hope your message is received well, Twitter notwithstanding. I enjoyed the piece. Shalom.
“Roberts Rules and bylaws in one hand, a beefy systematic theology in the other, the Scriptures rolling off my tongue, and a heart of love that blurts out resurrection to the suffering” What an incredible vision and hope. I love it.
And here you are, married to me
Be a fool for Christ, not the World.
🙏🙏🙏
So good, as always! I so appreciate your voice. Thanks for putting your thoughts out here for us to benefit from. The "Roberts Rules and bylaws" part got me :D
I'm glad there's a few of us that like polity :)
Coming from the political world, I know the value of it. I even was training to become a parliamentarian, once upon a time, because I saw how it can be wielded in settings where ideals are on the table.
isnt this like a chastity movement for prostitutes. the pentecostal movement is anti intellectual because is has no basis in apostolic tradition. its a movement that started on azuza st in the 1920s. thats in-credible to ppl with a brain, why is the pentecostal understanding of the gifts of the spirit absent from the entirity of church history?
That’s a comedic way of putting it, and I get you’re probably speaking in hyperbole. But I really don’t think things are that bad. Pentecostalism is no monolith, and it has institutions of higher learning across the globe. I also think the apostolic tradition is a little more complicated than what you’ve said here 😜
so do mormons. where is the gift of tongues as expressed by post-azusa pentacostalism in the early church or church fathers. serious question, id love to dig in if its there to be found.
You first asked about gifts (plural). When it comes to visions, ecstatic experiences, dreams, healings. and other typically Pentecostal spiritual experiences—all of that is well represented from the desert fathers through the medieval era. From St. Antony to Julian of Norwich. I can’t speak to tongues specifically. But Pentecostalism can’t be reduced to the gift of tongues, especially given the marginal (though significant) role it has played in Pentecostal practice. I also don’t think comparing to Mormonism is fair. Most Pentecostals are nicene-confessing, canon-defending, tradition-respecting Christians.
ok well tongues is especially emphasized by pentecostals and its the one with the most clear discrepancy from the traditional determination of the gift as i understand it
unfair? you must reject the canons of nicea and reject the meaning of the creed as regards what one holy catholic and apostolic church meant to the council fathers. so no to that one you reject 7 canonical books of the bible, so no there. and tradition? youve got no priesthood, no sacrifice, no eucharist in the traditional notion, no sacrament of penance, what tradition are you aligned with, the cathars?
Sounds to me like your beef is with Protestantism, not Pentecostalism 😅. Have you heard of Raneiro Cantalemessa? He’s worth reading for someone who is catholic and entirely into Pentecostalism 😊
did i say something that didnt apply to you? if so how? or are u really just performatively making my original point.
The two can and should go together. In my own tradition we have 'Reason is the devil's whore' coming from a man who bested the brains of his day but whose most influential fight might have been for increased learning of Greek and Hebrew and translation of the Scriptures into the vernacular.
The problem is that the answer to where to use the brain and where to leave it behind cannot be answered systematically. Law can be defined and precisely specified on tablets of stone. Gospel requires a living man, and is spread as much by our failures and mistakes as by anything that we get right. Gospel only comes from a sinner speaking deliberately as a 'sinner saved by grace', a beggar showing other beggars where he found bread. What we need isn't 'revealed from heaven' but only 'from faith to faith'.
🤝
We need your voice! Continue to write and build up others in our tradition! Blessings!
you too man
May those you teach and our younger generation of Pentecostals hear your message loud and clear. May it be a both/and in their lives. And in our own.
Amen :)
Calling Peter and John "smart idiot pentecostals" gave me the idea of "Ichthyic Pentecostal Macadamias," which sounds less offensive. Spirits, holy or not, do not have brains. It is no surprise that some pentecostals believe the brain (the intellect) will interfere with the Holy Spirit. Poor Darwin and Galileo were attacked for their intellectual achievements. I believe Pope something or another pardoned Galileo. Mercifully, Darwin's books were never banned by any pope. Within your belief system, you write clearly and brilliantly. Ergo, I hope your message is received well, Twitter notwithstanding. I enjoyed the piece. Shalom.
So grateful for your generosity :)
I love your writings and learn much from you.