i'm very new to this denomination. I know many many people who come from and serve in a Baptist community of faith. I was infact born again while in a Baptist community. Why is it that so much emphasis is placed on being "baptized" in the spirit and gifts of the spirit that an individual who displays much fruit of the "spirit" in their lives is looked at as less than? I ask because it is concerning to me that many of the people I have met in this denomination who profess to be "baptized" in the spirit have no fruit of the spirit.
The history that is in all of these other denominations, the many many years of faithful service from a sincere heart are regarded as less than simply because they do not speak in tongues?
I absolutely am not starting a discussion about the existence of the present day "baptism" of the spirit. I agree it is still present. I am suggesting that it may be hard to allow oneself to be led by some one a person feels is "less than" in the kingdom.
The denomination after all requires one to be "baptized" in the spirit to become a minister correct? Effectively saying that an individual who has years of living for the lord, exhibits godly character, has gifts of teaching or preaching but does not speak in tongues is not qualified.
Your experience is a common one in our movement. I do agree with you that we need to be really careful about making sure we're not declaring certain people "less than." It might be worth revisiting some of what actually comes from the horses's mouth to be sure that where you disagree is on officially statements, not on how people interpret them: https://ag.org/Beliefs/Position-Papers/Baptism-in-the-Holy-Spirit
In answer to your question at the end of the piece I say no. Naturally, this is to be expected as I am not part of the intended audience. I enjoyed the vignette of your childhood in Dédougou. I grew up in a place filled with mango trees, chameleons, iguanas and other creatures great and small. I was fascinated with the description of your father ("I could hear my father praying in tongues...") in his makeshift office. I am familiar with the term "speaking in tongues," as used in modern times, but also from several places in the Bible. The New Testament describes "tongues" largely as speech addressed to God, but also as something that can potentially be interpreted into human language, thereby "edifying the hearers" (1 Cor 14:5, 13). I have heard people on video, but I've never known a person who experiences it or who has heard a parent doing do. As a philologist, a linguist and a polyglot, I have yet to experience glossolalia. These are samples of what I've seen and heard of the phenomenon.
https://a.co/d/6s0bMTD I read this as an undergraduate after stumbling upon it in the stacks of the library. I found it to be an astutely academic, yet charitable account. He does some linguistic analysis. A good stuff.
As always, I’m honored that you read. Peace to you too.
Nous vivons dans un petit monde! William J. Samarin était traducteur pour Wycliffe Bible Translators. J'ai étudié la langue et la littérature portugaises avec Mary Lou Daniel, professeur émérite à l'Université du Wisconsin à Madison (https://spanport.wisc.edu/staff/daniel-mary-lou/) qui travaille depuis des décennies chez Wycliffe Bible Translators! Elle a mentionné Samarin lors de certaines de nos discussions, mais je ne me souvenais pas de ses travaux jusqu'à maintenant. Incroyable. I do not know why I wrote this in bad French.
I look forward to the day that Pentecostal movements begin embracing theological retrieval. Since my own movement has roots in the Wesleyan-Holiness moment, my desire is to see a recovery of Wesleyan and, therefore, Anglican spirituality. As you noted, these things are not mutually exclusive. We can have both!
The Theological Roots of Pentecostalism by Donald Dayton was really formative for me. https://a.co/d/1Wfmmke Have you seen it? He gracefully demonstrates that Pentecostalism basically owes its entire worldview and theological formation to Wesleyanism. Really brilliant stuff.
I haven’t seen it, but I just added it to my books list! I’d love to read it some day.
Have you had a chance to read The Faith Once Delivered: A Wesleyan Witness? It is a Wesleyan theological document with contributions from pan-Wesleyan theologians, including Pentecostals. It’s very impressive.
Not that I know of. I know one Professor in the Church of God Cleveland who contributed to the document had plans to present it to be a document used by the COG, but I don’t think it ever got traction.
I think it would make a highly effective theological document to adopt as a means of pan-Wesleyan unity.
Here you go! I think this is definitely worth a read. This is part of a greater movement of “The New Methodism” aka newer Wesleyan books, academic works, etc.
This is really excellent. I'm curious: the doc notes they hope it will be used in churches, bible studies, etc. But has there been any move to adopt it as an official document in any sectors of Wesleyanism?
This is so true. In fact, we are 20 years ahead of you and wondered why it has been hard to find mentors. You name it in a powerful way. There is much more to say about the why of this. I am not sure this comment section is the place. But to your point. May we see that godly mentors can be outside our tradition and come with a deep well that is from knowing Christ.
I’d LOVE to hear about it from someone who has some maturity on me. I’m not asking for digs at anyone, but I’m curious if you’d be willing to say any more.
Plenty of this resonates, but I suspect there may be some important differences with the movement in Australia where I am; our rebranding and updated beliefs are reflections of that.
This is very good Joseph thanks. The world seeks to cut us off from our roots. I was going to say 'modern world' but this is a whole world tendency even if modernity turbocharges it. It is happening to all of us so when I say that plants without roots grow quickly but have no staying power that is not meant as a dig at anybody. As a consequence, every sensible Christian is looking for connections back to our roots, most of us in a bunch of ways.
For myself, I have felt very much lately that the difference between historical Reformed Christianity and their much weaker heirs(that'd be this guy) is deep roots in the Patristics but more than anything in the Hebrew Prophets. I would say to those who are hesitant about reaching back for strength to times and places in the church that beyond debate were deeply flawed and suffering from multiple problems and sins, those are the only times and places that there are. The whole New Testament was written to deeply flawed churches. The whole Old Testament was too. The whole story of the church is wounded men limping along with a confused but real faith. Don't let anyone separate you from those who being dead yet testify to Christ.
Yeah, it’s helpful that you say modernity is turbocharging it. There’s an anti-tradition tradition in the West that has infected the church. And I think naming it as an anti-Christian impulse is really important. Are you actually reformed? Or are you just appreciative of the tradition?
We are not a member of a Reformed denomination(or any denomination). We hold to the doctrines of grace, the five Solas, and consider the Lutheran distinction between Law and Gospel very fundamental. Most of our church comes either from PCA or the reformed wing of the SBC. Not sure if that makes us 'really' Reformed or not. Why do you ask?
i'm very new to this denomination. I know many many people who come from and serve in a Baptist community of faith. I was infact born again while in a Baptist community. Why is it that so much emphasis is placed on being "baptized" in the spirit and gifts of the spirit that an individual who displays much fruit of the "spirit" in their lives is looked at as less than? I ask because it is concerning to me that many of the people I have met in this denomination who profess to be "baptized" in the spirit have no fruit of the spirit.
The history that is in all of these other denominations, the many many years of faithful service from a sincere heart are regarded as less than simply because they do not speak in tongues?
I absolutely am not starting a discussion about the existence of the present day "baptism" of the spirit. I agree it is still present. I am suggesting that it may be hard to allow oneself to be led by some one a person feels is "less than" in the kingdom.
The denomination after all requires one to be "baptized" in the spirit to become a minister correct? Effectively saying that an individual who has years of living for the lord, exhibits godly character, has gifts of teaching or preaching but does not speak in tongues is not qualified.
I think something is amiss.
Your experience is a common one in our movement. I do agree with you that we need to be really careful about making sure we're not declaring certain people "less than." It might be worth revisiting some of what actually comes from the horses's mouth to be sure that where you disagree is on officially statements, not on how people interpret them: https://ag.org/Beliefs/Position-Papers/Baptism-in-the-Holy-Spirit
Happy to talk more if this helps :)
In answer to your question at the end of the piece I say no. Naturally, this is to be expected as I am not part of the intended audience. I enjoyed the vignette of your childhood in Dédougou. I grew up in a place filled with mango trees, chameleons, iguanas and other creatures great and small. I was fascinated with the description of your father ("I could hear my father praying in tongues...") in his makeshift office. I am familiar with the term "speaking in tongues," as used in modern times, but also from several places in the Bible. The New Testament describes "tongues" largely as speech addressed to God, but also as something that can potentially be interpreted into human language, thereby "edifying the hearers" (1 Cor 14:5, 13). I have heard people on video, but I've never known a person who experiences it or who has heard a parent doing do. As a philologist, a linguist and a polyglot, I have yet to experience glossolalia. These are samples of what I've seen and heard of the phenomenon.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZIrU7m0gx0
Mein Gott in Himmel!
As always, I enjoy your writing. Shalom.
https://a.co/d/6s0bMTD I read this as an undergraduate after stumbling upon it in the stacks of the library. I found it to be an astutely academic, yet charitable account. He does some linguistic analysis. A good stuff.
As always, I’m honored that you read. Peace to you too.
Nous vivons dans un petit monde! William J. Samarin était traducteur pour Wycliffe Bible Translators. J'ai étudié la langue et la littérature portugaises avec Mary Lou Daniel, professeur émérite à l'Université du Wisconsin à Madison (https://spanport.wisc.edu/staff/daniel-mary-lou/) qui travaille depuis des décennies chez Wycliffe Bible Translators! Elle a mentionné Samarin lors de certaines de nos discussions, mais je ne me souvenais pas de ses travaux jusqu'à maintenant. Incroyable. I do not know why I wrote this in bad French.
Incroyable indeed 😇
I look forward to the day that Pentecostal movements begin embracing theological retrieval. Since my own movement has roots in the Wesleyan-Holiness moment, my desire is to see a recovery of Wesleyan and, therefore, Anglican spirituality. As you noted, these things are not mutually exclusive. We can have both!
The Theological Roots of Pentecostalism by Donald Dayton was really formative for me. https://a.co/d/1Wfmmke Have you seen it? He gracefully demonstrates that Pentecostalism basically owes its entire worldview and theological formation to Wesleyanism. Really brilliant stuff.
I haven’t seen it, but I just added it to my books list! I’d love to read it some day.
Have you had a chance to read The Faith Once Delivered: A Wesleyan Witness? It is a Wesleyan theological document with contributions from pan-Wesleyan theologians, including Pentecostals. It’s very impressive.
Link me! I’d like to see this. Dayton’s book is worth a simple perusal if nothing else. Just to see the framework of his argument.
Not that I know of. I know one Professor in the Church of God Cleveland who contributed to the document had plans to present it to be a document used by the COG, but I don’t think it ever got traction.
I think it would make a highly effective theological document to adopt as a means of pan-Wesleyan unity.
https://nextmethodism.org/wp-content/uploads/The-Faith-Once-Delivered-FINAL-1.pdf
Here you go! I think this is definitely worth a read. This is part of a greater movement of “The New Methodism” aka newer Wesleyan books, academic works, etc.
This is really excellent. I'm curious: the doc notes they hope it will be used in churches, bible studies, etc. But has there been any move to adopt it as an official document in any sectors of Wesleyanism?
This is so true. In fact, we are 20 years ahead of you and wondered why it has been hard to find mentors. You name it in a powerful way. There is much more to say about the why of this. I am not sure this comment section is the place. But to your point. May we see that godly mentors can be outside our tradition and come with a deep well that is from knowing Christ.
I’d LOVE to hear about it from someone who has some maturity on me. I’m not asking for digs at anyone, but I’m curious if you’d be willing to say any more.
Plenty of this resonates, but I suspect there may be some important differences with the movement in Australia where I am; our rebranding and updated beliefs are reflections of that.
I’d love to hear more. Can you point me to anything in particular that you’re thinking of? And can you come testify over here in America?
I’ll message you some links
This is very good Joseph thanks. The world seeks to cut us off from our roots. I was going to say 'modern world' but this is a whole world tendency even if modernity turbocharges it. It is happening to all of us so when I say that plants without roots grow quickly but have no staying power that is not meant as a dig at anybody. As a consequence, every sensible Christian is looking for connections back to our roots, most of us in a bunch of ways.
For myself, I have felt very much lately that the difference between historical Reformed Christianity and their much weaker heirs(that'd be this guy) is deep roots in the Patristics but more than anything in the Hebrew Prophets. I would say to those who are hesitant about reaching back for strength to times and places in the church that beyond debate were deeply flawed and suffering from multiple problems and sins, those are the only times and places that there are. The whole New Testament was written to deeply flawed churches. The whole Old Testament was too. The whole story of the church is wounded men limping along with a confused but real faith. Don't let anyone separate you from those who being dead yet testify to Christ.
Yeah, it’s helpful that you say modernity is turbocharging it. There’s an anti-tradition tradition in the West that has infected the church. And I think naming it as an anti-Christian impulse is really important. Are you actually reformed? Or are you just appreciative of the tradition?
We are not a member of a Reformed denomination(or any denomination). We hold to the doctrines of grace, the five Solas, and consider the Lutheran distinction between Law and Gospel very fundamental. Most of our church comes either from PCA or the reformed wing of the SBC. Not sure if that makes us 'really' Reformed or not. Why do you ask?
So good. I pray the assemblies learns the need for both the power of the Holy Spirit and the deep well of history that shows his work before us!